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Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 05:44:40 No.51034957 View Reply Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035031 >>51035247 >>51035349 >>51035353 >>51035361 >>51035648 >>51035839 >>51035983

Software-Egineering is not really a thing, right? I mean, it certainly does not look like something you would not figure out by yourself within 15 seconds of rational thought or like something which could not be learned on-the-job within minutes.

My university makes sure CS students get a proper mathematical education, putting us into the math students courses the first three semesters - and now we get this twelve-year-old bullshit? I should ask the customer what he wants before starting to code? Meaningful comments are good? One object should not do everything? Have a plan before you start? NO SHIT BATMAN

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 05:51:08 No.51035031 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035082

>>51034957
Congratulations, you're taking Programming 101. The only and definitive Programming class.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 05:55:20 No.51035082 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035095 >>51036459

>>51035031
I'm well past prog 101. I currently have to take a class called software engineering in semester 5. It does not have any programming. It does not have any math either. I'm so confuse.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 05:56:27 No.51035095 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035127

>>51035082
Oh I see, what you're learning isn't how to program, but how to make money from programming.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:00:23 No.51035127 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035227

>>51035095
It more feels like I'm learning shallow buzzwords and rules which are either meaningless or so self-evident it is insulting. They want to turn us into pointy haired bosses.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:05:37 No.51035146 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035170

>>51034804
Typical "school is useless" kid, see you in 5 years when the " damn I should have listened to this bullshit" hits you.
Software engineering is not you, alone in your room coding some bullshit that even a 6 years old Indian kid could do. And if you think you already know everything just leave this field because you're in for some surprises.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:09:34 No.51035170 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035204

>>51035146
please give 5 examples that are not common sense, which you need a SE class for.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:12:39 No.51035196 Report Delete

Quoted By:

Software engineering is like gender studies. 95% is unscientific b.s. kept alive by people telling you that it is very important.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:13:25 No.51035204 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035221 >>51035429 >>51036488

>>51035170
Not having an autistic attitude. Enjoy no job.

I highly doubt you could communicate with a customer

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:15:36 No.51035221 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035204
... aaaaand you failed. thanks for proving my point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:16:37 No.51035227 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035242

>>51035127
That's $oftware Engineering for you. It's an utterly useless discipline that exists so that you can be accredited by convincing people you have tight quality control standards and conventions that are completely meaningless. Do they still teach you guys fucking UML?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:17:59 No.51035242 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035311

>>51035227
>Do they still teach you guys fucking UML?

I had a glimpse at the exam from last year. There were some UML questions in there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:18:25 No.51035247 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035276 >>51035310

>>51034957
At my university in the UK (University of Cambridge), we were required to have A* (highest possible grade) results in both maths and further maths to even get a place on the CS course. Don't uni courses in America have requirements?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:21:24 No.51035276 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035301 >>51035349 >>51035508

>>51035247
I from Germany, so I would not know.
The way it works here that basically anyone can start CS but about two thirds quit along the way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:24:06 No.51035301 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035508

>>51035276
Same here in Finland, no course requirements but the ones with the highest grades get accepted. 2/3 still quit though

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:25:08 No.51035310 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035323 >>51035508

>>51035247
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL I can't believe that.

You must be trolling.

But if serious then they have a serious issue - computer science isn't THAT hard - it's more on the person and their brain wiring. Grades does not a grate computer engineer/scientist/programmer make.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:25:14 No.51035311 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035342

>>51035242
What gets me is how Java/object centric so much of it is. You'd be far better off learning techniques that allow you to reason about code and its structure programmatically, along with how to guarantee actual safety with formal methods/type systems and how to use such constructs with meta-programming techniques effectively etc.

But of course, the stuff they teach has nothing serious to do with what actual software engineering ought to be and instead is about business practice bullshit and how to sell yourself to people who have no understanding of what you actually need to do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:27:29 No.51035323 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035310
In Australia you have to have done at least math methods to get in.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:30:00 No.51035342 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035433

>>51035311
It gets worse: we are learning things along the lines of "just click this and this in eclipse". Oh, and make everything private, because everything is Java and we completely obsess about ecapsulation. Remember, always code everything such that a lobotomized monkey could not break it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:31:09 No.51035349 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035364

>>51034957
What are you babbling about?
An SE course at a uni is mostly like the CS course.
The only math course it lacked was stochastic.

>>51035276
CS rarely has any requirements apart from simply passing Abitur. At least when I started.
It's usually only medical fields or law that have an N.C.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:31:46 No.51035353 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51034957
>implying most people are capable of rational thought even for a second

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:32:55 No.51035361 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51034957
go on, write software and be rich

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:33:04 No.51035364 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035389

>>51035349
wat

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:35:29 No.51035389 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035411

>>51035364
I was just elaborating more on the situation in Germany

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:38:17 No.51035411 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035455

>>51035389
yeah

>An SE course at a uni is mostly like the CS course. The only math course it lacked was stochastic.

but what does that even mean? what is THE cs course? how would you have stats in a se course? I don't think you understood the OP.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:41:44 No.51035429 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036001

>>51035204
I like how OP thinks. I would literally hire OP over a university graduate in comp sci.

[spoiler:lit]To bad I'm a NEET with no business to hire him to.[/spoiler:lit]

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:42:03 No.51035433 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035444 >>51035480 >>51036125 >>51036389

>>51035342
The implementation of 'private' in C++ and then Java is just a huge fucking mistake. Smalltalk's private just warned you and recommended you not to use privately marked methods, but you you still use them if you wanted to for testing purposes or whatever as long as you aren't stupid enough to rely on them. Protected should be enough for anyone, because how the hell are you to judge whether or not someone might want to re-purpose or introspectively use parts of your class in all cases? It make no sense to make such a decision pre-emptively.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:43:28 No.51035444 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036404

>>51035433
And in Python, we are all grown ups.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:44:45 No.51035455 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035411
>what is THE cs course?
Is study course a better translation?
I don't mean a single lecture in one semester,
I mean the shit you study and get your degree in.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:48:22 No.51035480 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035515 >>51035558

>>51035433
But it does.
You want assurances that no one can fuck with your private field/method from the outside, so you don't have to worry about some shit fucking with it and bring the object into some weird state you didn't account for.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:51:52 No.51035508 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035571 >>51035601 >>51035614

>>51035276
>>51035301
And these are at respectable universities in your respective countries? I find that pretty silly to just let anybody choose what they want if 2/3 are going to dropout. Obviously the requirements for Cambridge are very high, but it's the same across the board here, just need lower grades for lesser known universities.

>>51035310
Are you studying CS? You definitely need to be good at maths to be good at CS. It's the same techniques just applied to a different field of science. In first year we were required to take chemistry (on a CS course) on Saturday mornings to get us up to a good standard, despite already having top physics grades. I think you underestimate how challenging some aspects of CS can be...

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:52:28 No.51035515 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035575

>>51035480
but why not? it's not like i can't break your code if i really wanted to even if you made everything private. stop caring about the case where somebody does not respect the warning, he might have a good reason.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 06:58:12 No.51035558 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035575

>>51035480
Agreed, but if you're inheriting from a class to use its implementation, it's your responsibility to understand what the fuck it's supposed to do and implement all of its virtual methods in the first place. If you can't access the data required to do this, you're out of luck, and it should be up to whoever is organising the program to determine what part of the program are exposed to what aspects of a given structure and how, something 'private' is terrible at since it decides, once and for all, how everything should be able to access the implementation, even if this is irrelevant to the encapsulation of individual objects.

It's just bad design because it forces you to think about a problem that there ought to be no immediate decision made on, while being inferior to other ways of providing modularity.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:00:34 No.51035571 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035755

>>51035508
>And these are at respectable universities in your respective countries?

German dude here.

Yes, speaking roughly, graduating at university A in discipline X is just as good as graduating at university B in discipline X. There are no bad or unrespected universities, fees are laughable (about 300 euros a semester) and the only thing that can keep you out of a university is when that university reaches its capacity for students of discipline X.

The downside (I would not even call it that) of this is that at least in all the hard sciences the first semesters are intentionally hard so that a lot of people drop out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:01:12 No.51035575 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035616 >>51035679

>>51035515
>>51035558
This just means either my class wasn't properly designed and should be reworked or the other guy's trying to force it to do something it shouldn't.
Either way the problem should be solved somewhere else.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:04:26 No.51035601 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035508
This might explain the situation in Germany a bit better: http://www.bbc.com/news/education-34132664

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:05:48 No.51035614 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035508
Yes, it's an anglo thing to have shit and good universities. It's what you know that matters especially in IT.

Of course not everyone gets accepted to a university, they accept the people with the highest grades and those who scored best at the entrance exams.

For Computer Science at Helsinki University (top 100) you can get accepted by passing a programming exam.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:06:06 No.51035616 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035637

>>51035575
this implies you foresee EVERYTHING

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:08:52 No.51035637 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035703

>>51035616
No, the opposite. I want to rule out as much unforseen things as possible by limiting the access.

Designing for absolutely everything is just retarded..

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:10:16 No.51035648 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51034957
>I should ask the customer what he wants before starting to code?

Dumbest advice they can give.

Customers have no idea what they want.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:13:51 No.51035679 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035697

>>51035575
>my class wasn't properly designed and should be reworked or the other guy's trying to force it to do something it shouldn't

Why do you actually believe either has to be the case? You're basically assuming that the particular language construct must have a good reason to be the way it is, as if it was either god given or has formal reasons behind it, when neither is the case. There are better ways of handling it that give everyone better control, make things easier to manage, avoid you having to made unnecessary decisions early, and still provide every bit as much actual encapsulation.

You seem to assume that without private, you must expose everything to everyone else, when this is not the case. Rather, having the freedom to simply not expose access to whatever you do not want to is the superior course of action, it's just that there's no good way to do this in Java, so people are pretty much forced to use access keywords because of the model it has.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:15:57 No.51035697 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035821

>>51035679
What superior model are you talking about?
I only heard about access keywords but warn instead of fail in this thread.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:16:48 No.51035703 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035782

>>51035637
>Designing for absolutely everything is just retarded.

Which is exactly the problem with 'private'. Modular access is superior. Given you can't prevent anything with virtual methods from begin overridden to whatever, what possible guarantees could you make that aren't better done in other way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:22:01 No.51035755 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035773

>>51035571
german here

I would be so pissed if my degree was worth less than the same degree from another university which I could not get into because I'm not rich. The british and american system is so fucked up.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:24:05 No.51035773 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035755
oh wait you were also the countries where you die when you cant pay a doctor right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:24:52 No.51035782 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035703
>Given you can't prevent anything with virtual methods from begin overridden to whatever,
Why would I make a virtual method if I don't want it to be overwritten?

I can stop a method from being overridden if you mean that. At least in Java.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:26:44 No.51035798 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035811

From my experience, only people who exclusively code in Java defend Java's obsession with privates.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:28:14 No.51035811 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035822

>>51035798
In my experience only people who exclusively code in scripting languages with no static assurances whatsoever attack access keywords.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:29:24 No.51035821 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035857

>>51035697
As crappy as they are, C headers provide something like the kind of functions I'm talking about. I can write a bunch of C code in a .c file, and not give a shit about who accesses what within the file itself. However, other code might want to use a set of functions in a specific way. I can write a .h file that exposes exactly what functions are needed, in a way that results in a consistent state of the program for that particular use case. If another part of the code needs access to a deeper level of functionality, I can provide a separate header that exposes a different set of features instead. It's a clunky example, but it's something you might be able to relate to and understand. 'Private' stuffs up this kind of modularity by declaring, pre-emptively, that nothing should access these particular functions outside of a class.

You simply shouldn't need to make such a decision at a single point, for all time, and so early. That's is why it is a bad construct.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:29:27 No.51035822 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035811
But your experience is wrong, where mine is not!!

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:31:13 No.51035839 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51034957
Software engineering is the difference between microsoft and the FSF.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:34:16 No.51035857 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035928

>>51035821
>I can provide a separate header that exposes a different set of features instead.
And I can provide interfaces in Java

>You simply shouldn't need to make such a decision at a single point, for all time, and so early.
So you never use static functions in C?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:44:11 No.51035928 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51035973

>>51035857
>And I can provide interfaces in Java
I never said you couldn't, I'm criticising the motive behind the particular implementation of the private keyword.

>So you never use static functions in C?
This is less of an issue since you don't inherit from translation units and reimplement functions in them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:50:12 No.51035973 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036255

>>51035928
>I'm criticising the motive behind the particular implementation of the private keyword.
What motive? Private isn't there to replace interfaces.

>This is less of an issue since you don't inherit from translation units and reimplement functions in them.
You don't inherit from a class I don't want you to either.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:51:57 No.51035983 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036012

>>51034957
After seeing the shitshow that is modern day programming, I'm glad software engineering is a thing.

Give me someone who understands at least a few design patterns and I'm good. When we have people creating 2000 line class files that are mostly copy and paste, there's a problem.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:54:32 No.51036001 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035429
Well that's a fucking shock with an opinion like that.

Itt: the reason I make way more money than I think I should for what i do

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 07:56:20 No.51036012 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035983
>Give me someone who understands at least a few design patterns and I'm good.
I prefer people who never heard of single design pattern over people who try to cram every GoF pattern everywhere because they think that makes it good design.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:11:23 No.51036125 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035433
Look, C++ is a production language. A company wants to be able to pay a programmer to write a particular class, have that programmer describe what that class does, and say exactly what it does with tests, error handling, exceptions etc. Then the class can be used for whatever they wish, and no matter what anyone does with it, it will always do exactly as described. Anything deviating from this will be considered a bug. If you don't like it, just don't use it, or modify the original source code, but then all warranties are void.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:23:41 No.51036255 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036323

>>51035973
he explained the motive to you, autist. you need to lrn2read. why should he have to be redundant just because you suck at recall?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:29:13 No.51036323 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036411

>>51036255
Then explain it to me better because I don't get it at all.
Header files have absolutely nothing to do with access control.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:31:53 No.51036351 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036652

Today on /g/: People who never write anything but toy programs for themselves learn for the very first time about what you need to do to write software for other people.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:35:28 No.51036389 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036448

>>51035433
You literally can access private fields in Java (not sure about C++ but probably).

It's just a little bit difficult since you're not supposed to do it, but you can.

Please don't post about things you don't know.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:37:26 No.51036404 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035444
My teacher would say this all the time. Just dont fuck with other peoples shit. Its so goddamned simple

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:37:56 No.51036411 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51036448

>>51036323
hes' talking about god damn privates

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:41:20 No.51036448 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51036389
Anyone using reflection to disable safety mechanisms in production code should be shot.

Comes in handy at times though, like resetting a Singleton in a unit test.

>>51036411
He doesn't say anything about how this is an alternative to private's purpose.
Everything he described about C is easily possible in Java.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:42:45 No.51036459 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035082
NHL I2A

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 08:45:15 No.51036488 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51035204
Lel. Software engineering feels waaaay to basic. It doesn't seem like you learn to many hard skills like advanced programming theory or hardware concepts, just how to be middle management.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 09:00:25 No.51036652 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51036351
True dat my nig. I cannot count how many times I've seen hacks and spaghetti code everywhere and when things break the one responsible says, "Works as coded."

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