/g/ - Technology » Thread #51052743

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Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:32:15 No.51052743 View Reply Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51052843 >>51052874 >>51052891 >>51052938 >>51052969 >>51052998 >>51053255 >>51053340 >>51053522 >>51053545 >>51053646 >>51053663

Hey /g/.

Pro Linux dude here, used Arch, Gentoo, all the maymays. I have decided to stop embracing botnets.

Tell me, /g/, what is a distro that does NOT use Systemd, is not source-based, and is not very minimal?

That rules out Arch, I heard you can remove systemd from it, but it seems like a very hack-y solution, rather use a distro built specifically without systemd.

I would use Gentoo, but I need to deploy the distro quickly, that easily rules out Gentoo.

Last Slackware uses a kernel that doesn't work with my computer. Fuck new hardware.

-extra points for rolling release

>pic related, mfw when debian becomes botnet.
thanks /g/

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:44:48 No.51052843 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51052855

>>51052743
Just embrace systemd. It's too late to fight it. We should pour our efforts into making systemd as tolerable as possible at this point now that all the major enterprise distros or their upstream projects are adopting it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:46:38 No.51052855 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51052872 >>51052878 >>51052909 >>51052957

>>51052843
Why was systemd put into Linux anyway? Surely there has to be a good reason such as performance.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:48:01 No.51052872 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51052855
NSA shilling redhat and devs

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:48:09 No.51052874 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51052969

>>51052743
trisquel ?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:49:00 No.51052878 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51052997

>>51052855
>performance
>1 sec faster boot

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:50:20 No.51052891 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51052743
openSUSE might have you covered for now, but be warned that Systemd IS coming to it eventually (it's planned).

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:52:24 No.51052909 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51052997 >>51053098 >>51053161

>>51052855
Part of the reason is to unify standards between distros so that software can more easily be written once and work across all distros without modification.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO mladyy.gif, 324KiB, 401x353

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:54:47 No.51052938 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51052743

>arch
>gentoo

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:56:10 No.51052957 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51052997 >>51053098 >>51053123 >>51053161

>>51052855
I think it is reasonable to throw out SysVInit. It is slow and clunky and gets hung up on individual tasks. I think it was definitely time everyone move to something robust, dependency based, something a bit more like Apple's LaunchD. It definitely provides faster boot times and it unifies the way a lot of things are done, and is poised to unify a lot more things across distributions. With so much fractioning of how services are started, managed, otherwise controlled, how network interfaces are handled, how cron is handled and by what, I think systemd offers kindof a full distribution for all of that in a neat package. It promises to make Linux more unified and coherent between the distributions so that you don't have to learn too many particular quirks about a certain system flavor.

I think the politics of the last points are the most powerful reasons for why SystemD in particular over other init systems that offer some of its functionality. It isn't perfect, but it's already over and done with. Time to make the best of it.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO bird scholar.jpg, 47KiB, 400x529

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:57:18 No.51052969 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053081 >>51053098 >>51053534

>>51052874
defaults to systemd lad....

>>51052743
Devuan is a debian derivative with the sole purpose of eliminating botnetd
also, there are plenty more out there
http://www.gabordemooij.com/escape_from_systemd

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Free.2FOpen_Source_Operating_systems_without_systemd_in_the_default_installation

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:59:24 No.51052997 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053072 >>51053081 >>51053098

>>51052878
If that's not sarcasm, good.
>>51052909
Awesome.
>>51052957
Great! Nicely written, anon.

Now I need examples of the bad. What's bad about it? Why is it "botnet"?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:59:32 No.51052998 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51052743
>muh systemd is bad meme
faggot

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:09:14 No.51053072 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053119

>>51052997
Things that suck? Out of box, it writes non plaintext log/journal files using this binary format that you need this tool to read through.

I am irked by it a little philosophically because it is quickly becoming this very very massive overarching project of very huge scope, which is not how things are generally done in *nix. *nix was purposefully designed such that most everything could be done between many very tiny programs that do one simple thing and do it well, and when used in conjunction do a complex thing excellently, and as much as can be reasonable, makes that functionality accessible through the file and the pipe.

I feel like SystemD is kindof this gigantic userspace thing now that is just creeping towards no end in features and scope, some of it reinventing the wheel. Last I heard there are plans to replace the linux kernel framebuffer with a systemd service. It all kindof reminds me of Apple with discoveryd vs the already very functional mdnsresponder.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1440939537886.jpg, 270KiB, 1280x960

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:10:27 No.51053081 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51052997
>What's bad about it?
refer to>>51052969

also:
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd

also: its not audited
it doesnt matter if its open source as long as its not audited (and it will never be) since it can have malicious code
http://www.stackprinter.com/export?service=programmers.stackexchange&question=61164

http://www.underhanded-c.org/

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:13:04 No.51053098 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053119

>>51052909
Bullshit. In the Sysvinit days, packages ran on all distros with no patching required. Systemd is doing nothing but putting backdoors in your Linux.

>>51052957
>offers all of that in a neat package
what about the unix philosophy, faggot? If you try to do everything at once, you're not gonna do a single thing right.

>>51052969
Thank you!

>>51052997
I would explain here, but nah. Go check out all the crap IgnorantGuru wrote about systemd on his blog.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:15:14 No.51053119 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053161

>>51053098
>what about the unix philosophy, faggot?

I touched on that here:
>>51053072

But in the end Linux is not UNIX, and UNIX didn't even turn out to be fully UNIX like with regards to several things, most notably the networking stack. This is why they say plan9 is more unix than unix.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:15:45 No.51053123 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053211

>>51052957
NSA/Redhat please go

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:20:50 No.51053161 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053211

>>51053119
True, Linux is indeed not UNIX, the point is the UNIX philosophy, which, in my opinion, makes a lot of sense and should be used for pretty much all programming.

>>51052909
>>51052957
lennart pls go

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:28:58 No.51053211 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053245

>>51053161
>>51053123
It's all completely valid though. sysvinit sucks, this much is pretty much impossible to dispute. I kind of liked upstart personally, but canonical is setting aside their N.I.H. syndrome for a moment to make their distribution unified with the others. Given they reinvented the wheel with Mir when Wayland is perfectly fine, that is saying a lot for the opportunity presented by systemd. We can finally have a very decent coherent landscape where services and networking are configured the same across distributions, perfectly and fast.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:33:56 No.51053245 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053253

>>51053211
before i reply
are you serious or sarcastic or bait?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:34:32 No.51053248 Report Delete

Quoted By:

why the fuck does the default setting spew crap all over tty1 and fill logs with cron shit?

I hate having to fix that on every fucking install

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:35:12 No.51053253 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053277

>>51053245
I'm entirely serious.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:35:17 No.51053255 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053277 >>51053534

>>51052743
debian botnet?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:38:11 No.51053277 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053325

>>51053253
Ok. Mind explaining how Sysvinit sucked?
>It worked.
>No issues ever.
>Fully in text
>Customize as you wish
>No one gives a fuck about boot speed.

>>51053255
Debian recently got systemd
Debian is botnet now.
>checked

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:43:25 No.51053325 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053444

>>51053277

In practice, it is built on a cludge of shell scripts that start and stop services, often by placing pid files. It is no more a service management system than netbsd's joke of an rsync'd set of directories with make files that wget sourcecode from sourceforge are a 'package management system'.

Networking scripts were handled completely differently between debian and red hat families, other distributions different still. SystemD fixes this.

Boot times do matter, and when your boot hangs for an eternity because, for example, an interface can't get DHCP, I think that is a pretty stupid reason to have a delay.

I concede other points.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:45:01 No.51053340 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51052743

>reddit frogging across the Universe...

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:55:31 No.51053444 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053513

>>51053325
>Networking scripts were handled completely differently between debian and red hat families, other distributions different still.
>oh no using different command
>that's called choice m8

>Boot times do matter, and when your boot hangs for an eternity because, for example, an interface can't get DHCP, I think that is a pretty stupid reason to have a delay.
I actually agree with this. But again, you only really boot 1 time in a day.

>In practice, it is built on a cludge of shell scripts that start and stop services, often by placing pid files. It is no more a service management system than netbsd's joke of an rsync'd set of directories with make files that wget sourcecode from sourceforge are a 'package management system'.

I see no issues with this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:03:59 No.51053513 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51053444
> called choice
When your desire is to maintain thousands of things running diverse distributions, and you want to do it through some sort of central automation, it's called a pain in the ass.

You can always choose a system without systemd, but I don't think sysvinit was ever so great that it shouldn't ever be replaced.

> no issues with script kiddie init system
with a system that was actually built for modularity and performance, much can be done. Databases are way faster to interface and can give you high visibility for services very quickly in ways that parsing flat files cannot. Database/binary logs are both a pro and a con of systemd.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:05:17 No.51053522 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053567

>>51052743
>Last Slackware uses a kernel that doesn't work with my computer. Fuck new hardware.

that's 14.1, or -current?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:05:55 No.51053528 Report Delete

Quoted By:

Salix OS, basically Slackware pro with their own package manager

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:06:45 No.51053534 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51053255
see>>51052969

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:07:46 No.51053545 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51052743
There's some information about binary deployment of your current Gentoo system. Why hop distros when there's a more elegant solution?
It's like starting over an entire project because you encounter a bug.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:07:57 No.51053548 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053784

What the fuck is wrong with systemd?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:10:22 No.51053567 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053589

>>51053522
14.1

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:13:08 No.51053589 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053611

>>51053567
why not try -current then? Its on kernel-4.1.6.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:15:30 No.51053611 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053665

>>51053589
But how stable and secure is current?

Arch is bleeding edge, and relatively stable, so is Debian Sid, but Ubuntu and Fedora development releases don't even start.

What testing does software go through before it's shoved into -current??

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:19:30 No.51053646 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053746

>>51052743
Ever heard of Void Linux?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:21:36 No.51053663 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51052743
ubuntu

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:21:41 No.51053665 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053746

>>51053611
Slackware-current development is similar to -current trees of the BSDs, though not as transparent as them (e.g. there's repo of sources, but there's the repo of binary packages plus the SlackBuilds and sources needed to build them.) That said, -current development is documented mainly in the Slackware LinuxQuestions (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/) so that plus the current ChangeLog.txt makes it easy to see what's updated.

With regards to security, -current is mostly in parity with 14.1 except for the obvious updates.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:29:42 No.51053746 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053992

>>51053646
>Forum on Google botnet.
>Everything on github
>Only 6000 packages.
>Recommended everywhere on /g/, makes me believe it's one of those barely functional meme operating systems like TempleOS

>>51053665
Interesting. Thanks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:33:18 No.51053784 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053859

>>51053548
It's made by a normie. Something something cat doesn't work with logs

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:42:15 No.51053859 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51053993

>>51053784
Nice try NSA

The problem is it's too big. No one is going to audit all the code meaning it's much simpler to add backdoors or tracking without the users ever knowing

It's like svhost on Windows, not something you should strive to achieve

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:54:58 No.51053992 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>51054235

>>51053746
Arch is also recommended everywhere on /g/
But for real, Void is pretty good.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:55:10 No.51053993 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51053859
Ehhh, using wire shark would trivially discover tracking, that's not something anyone has come across, but would if there were constant tracking. It's safe to assume there is no constant tracking.

I'm fine with the size as long as it's free software, svhost is a large risk because it isn't. You can easily grep some things in the systemd code to discover large malicious chunks of code. I don't believe they can hide that.

Subtle backdoors? Maybe. Still, chance is small, the chance of being exploited by it is incredibly small. Systemd is still a big contrast to mad surveillance of Windows, Google services etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:18:44 No.51054235 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>51053992
Give examples on how it is good?

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