/m/ - Mecha » Thread #13420104

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Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 14:27:19 No.13420104 View Reply Report Delete

Looking back, was Gundam SEED Destiny really that bad? When you take into account some of the other tripe released, how does it stack up, in all honesty?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 06:41:08 No.13428982 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13428987

>>13428972
And you're still pulling that assumption straight out of your ass to defend Kira.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 06:43:09 No.13428987 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13428994

>>13428982
No, he all but says it outloud.

Once again, I'm not defending Kira. Pointing out that Durandal is a villain doesn't mean that I agree with Kira about everything. Get your head out of your ass and try some method of derailing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 06:44:31 No.13428990 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13428995

>>13428981
Where is this stated in the show? How do you know he WASN'T just targeting the building Cagalli was in? You're just stuffing words into Durandal's mouth to make sure Kira is right.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 06:48:49 No.13428994 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429004

>>13428987
>Once again, I'm not defending Kira.

Unless we're conceding to the "Everyone's awful" interpretation of the ending, that's exactly what you're doing. You're making negative assumptions about Durandal and ignoring Kira so you can defend the show's insane, hypocritical message that Durandal (but not Kira) is the villain who MUST be stopped and Kira (but not Durandal) MUST be the hero.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 06:48:57 No.13428995 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13428990
Have you seen the size of the beam? Are you fucking kidding me? And are you forgetting (or perhaps ignorant) about what after effects such a weapon would have? Please stop this bullshit. Just because I'm pointing out that Durandal is a villain doesn't mean Kira is right about everything. Get real.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 06:50:14 No.13429002 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13428933
So he's basically trying to make Psycho-Pass?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 06:51:26 No.13429004 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429035

>>13428994
>You're making negative assumptions about Durandal and ignoring Kira

I'm ignoring Kira because I'm not talking about Kira. I'm talking about Durandal. He is clearly wrong in this scenario. That doesn't mean everything Kira does is right. Is that really so hard to understand? Is everything so black and white to you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 07:00:43 No.13429024 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429046 >>13429048

>>13428923
...in the last war. So? How is that relevant now? The treaty wasn't written up until after that war. What's your point?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 07:04:46 No.13429035 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429046 >>13429050

>>13429004
>I'm ignoring Kira because I'm not talking about Kira.

Yes you are. Everything you're saying translates back to Kira. You're trying to villainize Durandal by himself so you can keep Kira in a more heroic light.

Think about your logic here for a second. You can keep saying "herp derp well I don't completely agree with Kira," but unless you're going to start tearing him apart the same way you're tearing Durandal apart, then all you're doing is protecting Kira.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 07:09:53 No.13429046 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429078 >>13429279

>>13429024
The treaty prohibits military use of those technologies, not just reconstruction of them. And the Archangel isn't affiliated with Orb's military - they're in direct opposition for a long while. By that point, the treaty has already been broken by both the Alliance and ZAFT.

>>13429035
That's a shitty argument. You can dislike something without liking the alternative to it. I don't like pie, but I don't like cake either.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 07:10:19 No.13429048 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429051

>>13429024
Kira defenders always cling to this fuzzy assumption that it's perfectly okay to maintain NJCs as long as they were built before the war. Even though nothing like that is ever said in the show and Kira is the only person we ever see with a leftover NJC.

It's more likely Fukuda just forgot that the treaty was a thing that existed in his universe.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 07:10:26 No.13429050 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429200

>>13429035
I'm trying to villainze Durandal. He already is a villain. Remove Kira from the show and he'd still be a villain.

>unless you're going to start tearing him apart the same way you're tearing Durandal apart, then all you're doing is protecting Kira.

Now that's just retarded. I already said I don't agree with Kira. Doesn't make Durandal any less villainous.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 07:11:59 No.13429051 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13429048
>It's more likely Fukuda just forgot that the treaty was a thing that existed in his universe.

I don't see how since no one else uses a NJC and the Freedom's prowess in the first half is entirely because of this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 07:24:41 No.13429078 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429260

>>13429046
>By that point, the treaty has already been broken by both the Alliance and ZAFT.
But they were holding onto the Freedom and had specifically repaired it. They were retaining a NJC equipped weapon with the intention if using it if they decided they needed it. They were in violation of a treaty that (correct me if I'm wrong here) I think they had a hand in creating in the first place. Long before the EA tried to nuke the PLANTS again, they still had the Freedom. And don't give me that 'but they're not part of Orb' bullshit. Cagalli is nominally in charge of the country and is totally complicit in their presence and actions. They only start attacking Orb (though they were never in opposition and were more reluctant to do so than with other nations) after Kira has been active for a while and Cagalli is no longer in charge.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 07:28:29 No.13429092 Report Delete

Quoted By:

Can Kira actually be killed? Because everything points to no

Kinda makes the story a bit dull

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 08:40:25 No.13429200 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429357

>>13429050
>Remove Kira from the show and he'd still be a villain.

Remove Durandal from the show and you'd have Kira telling everyone they should listen to him for even less of a reason.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 09:19:56 No.13429260 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429279

>>13429078
>Cagalli is nominally in charge of the country and is totally complicit in their presence and actions.
Cagalli didn't even know the Freedom was rebuilt.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 09:34:53 No.13429279 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13429295

>>13429046
>By that point, the treaty has already been broken by both the Alliance and ZAFT.

When did ZAFT break the treaty prior to Phase 12?
When did ZAFT break the treaty prior to Phase 23?

>>13429260
It. doesn't. matter. How many times do we need to go through this point in the same thread? She did nothing to stop him or do any kind of damage control once she found out. She never even acknowledged the damage he had done, physically and politically.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 09:41:23 No.13429295 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13429279
By the time Cagalli takes back control of Orb, ZAFT has already built suits equipped with N-Jammer Cancellers of their own.

>She did nothing to stop him or do any kind of damage control once she found out.
Under what authority? Yuna took control of Orb, and she isn't the captain of the Archangel. The most she can do is say "I don't like this".

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 10:13:01 No.13429357 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13429200
Yes. And?

Doesn't change that Durandal is a villain.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 10:38:06 No.13429411 Report Delete

Quoted By:

Tldr.
People discussing ded era and hack director who didn't even know why he did those things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 15:34:33 No.13430515 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13428695
Why? Of any of the bullshit in this thread, this is what I cannot comprehend at all. Wings Of Words is among the worst OPs for an anime ever.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 15:42:00 No.13430542 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431385 >>13431517 >>13431646 >>13431828

I think the biggest problem with trying to paint Kira and Lacus as villains are they aren't very good ones.

They're just far too nice and forgiving. Kira gets angry all at once in Destiny at Athrun, and he still nurses him back to health and has no hard feelings about it. Lacus is touched by Meer's death and cries for her, even though by all accounts she didn't like what she was doing.

Kira spares Shinn 4 times in Destiny and when all is said and done, despite Shinn nearly killing him and Athrun and killing tons of his countrymen, Kira gives him a handshake and smile. Again, no hard feelings.

For all that Kira and Lacus prioritize Orb over all else, they still have some care for their foes. Although Kira stops Minerva from wiping the fleet, he also doesn't seem to want them to be destroyed either since he protects them a few times, and doesn't just let Orb sink it, or do it himself (and it would have honestly made life alot easier for him if he did) Kira could have killed the entire new cast in 23, leaving himself and Lacus as supreme overlords right then and there, but he just disables everyone and lets them on their way.

Are they poorly written sues? Certainly. But they're just too damn nice (and it shoots them in the foot mulitple times) to make good villains.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 18:41:27 No.13431370 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13420104
Just 2 episodes in and I'm starting to get weird vibes from it since they used that retarded inverted color scene at the end of episode 1. And I have the impression that there will be a lot of focus on boob physics. Only two episodes and it feels like Fukuda is trying really hard to emulate/mimic Tomino while bringing a lot of stupid shit into it. The scene with the mechanic girl pointing her gun at students was cringe material. Also magic color gundam amor.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 18:45:04 No.13431385 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431437 >>13431478

>>13430542
>Kira spares Shinn 4 times in Destiny

List them

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 18:58:10 No.13431437 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431449 >>13431456

>>13431385
not him, but the most obvious is the railgun shot that really pissed Shinn off. He even ranted to himself about how offensive he found it. I haven't watched Destiny in a while, but I think there was also at least one instance in the Impulse/Freedom fight where Kira had a shot and didn't take it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:01:17 No.13431449 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431489

>>13431437
That sequence just makes me cringe. I mean, it's pretty apparent without the line, but they had to throw that in there too?

No wonder Kenichi wasn't happy with the way it ended.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:02:44 No.13431456 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431522

>>13431437
Destiny has a nuclear reactor. Had Kira used his chest cannon he would have died too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:07:36 No.13431478 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431498 >>13431522 >>13431828

>>13431385

23 where Shinn's wide open and Kira just takes his arm off.

Twice in 34, where he takes off Impulse's head and arm and then tries to leave instead of blowing up the disabled Impulse (Shinn launches the damaged parts at him) and at the end when he counterstabs the head instead of the cockpit essentially risking death for himself but not Shinn.

And finally in 43 when he hits him with the railguns instead of the chest cannon, and then just poses instead of shooting him again. Shinn even gets mad at this.

There's no fear for Shinn in any of these fights because you know Kira isn't trying to kill him, which makes Kira a pretty poor villain to go aganist the hero here.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:09:41 No.13431489 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13431449

I suppose they felt that had to make it clear "Kira's still not trying to kill him, even though Shinn's actually a threat to him now."

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:12:26 No.13431498 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13431478
The only one of those where he spared him was with the infamous sword grab, because Strike Freedom needs to show off.

There's nothing saying that Kira would have taken down Shinn in those other instances, in fact you're literally remembering those scenes incorrectly. When Impulse gets it's arm and head cut off, Shinn immediately throws the damaged top half of Impulse at Freedom and blows it up so he can recombine safely, not giving Kira the chance to do anything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:17:49 No.13431517 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13430542
>they're just too damn nice
This is probably just a personal bugbear of mine, but I loathed them purely due to their conceit, hypocrisy, arrogance and smug certainty that they were doing the right thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:18:19 No.13431522 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13431456
>Kira
>die
ich lol
>>13431478
>Kira
>villain
>Shinn
>hero
lololol

This is why I don't take Destiny-hate seriously. It's not that the show doesn't make sense, it's that your ability to process information is fucked.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:44:01 No.13431646 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431736 >>13431828

>>13430542
>They act so nice while they do absolutely barbaric things, so they can't really be villains

If anything, that aspect just makes them creepier.

Example: When they help Djibril escape Orb and he immediately starts wiping out PLANT civilians, they never stop for a second to show remorse for their actions. They never question if they made the right call to block ZAFT from finding him. They never even make the connection of "Oh my god, WE partly caused this to happen." They just keep up their relentless "happy friendly people" shtick talking about how they're always the victims and Durandal must be responsible for everything. That's exactly the kind of shit that makes them (unintentionally) come off like total psychos.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 19:59:31 No.13431717 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431775

>They act so nice while they do absolutely barbaric things, so they can't really be villains

You ever see Hot Fuzz?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:02:45 No.13431736 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431808 >>13431861

>>13431646

That's pretty much the only time they do anything barbaric in the entire show, and even then it's indirectly, and even then while they don't blame themselves they do feel bad for Plant that all those people died. They don't pat themselves on the back that their enemy was dealt a major blow and it wasn't even them that did it.

That's just...not villainous. I'm not really not what that is because they seem to want to fight the entire world while feeling bad about it and being easy on their enemies enough to backfire on them several times. I don't know what to call that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:10:34 No.13431775 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431817

>>13431717
The zany Simon Pegg action comedy? That comparison doesn't match. GSD is trying to be trying to be a serious military trying to teach an important message about free will.

That's like saying the Archangel characters in Destiny are okay heroes because they act just like the main characters in Team America: World Police. Except in Team America was deliberately satire and the entire point was showing why that type of mindset is idiotic

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:15:20 No.13431808 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431828

>>13431736

Okay mate, let's look at Terminal. Lacus starts this organization up after the first war, in the name of promoting peace. Seems nice, right?

Now let's look at what Terminal actually does. It actively spies on most military factions in the Earth Sphere, then turns around taking whatever information they gather and hands it over to the other factions. This undermines the trust between nations, and would realistically contribute to the deterioration of peace. And with ORB/Cagalli funding Terminal, Kira and Lacus are making ORB a target for reprisal if they ever get found out.

Not to mention how Terminal nicks military tech for their own usage and deletes all data on it, including stuff banned by treaty.

In the opening episode, Cagalli goes to Durandal to complain about ZAFT's military buildup. It's supposed to be wrong because he's prepping in case of war when ZAFT is supposed to be pursuing peace. She conveniently leaves out how ORB rebuilt it's military force as well, and is stocked up with the Astray's descendants the Murasame's. She also complains about how former ORB citizen's are developing mobile suits for ZAFT, but Terminal (which again, she's funding) is made up of former ZAFT and EA members.

And let's not forget, how is ORB funding Terminal? Is it under the table stuff in order to hide from scrutiny from ZAFT/EA, or is she embezzling ORB funds to Lacus's little organization?

The show doesn't want you to think about any of these things, just accept that party A is good while party B is meanie bad guys.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:16:48 No.13431817 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13431775
>GSD is trying to be trying to be a serious military trying to teach an important message about free will.

Right... Obey Kira and Lacus or they will subjugate your ass. Don't take anything at face value and question you leaders...just not Kira and Lacus.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:18:29 No.13431828 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13430542
>>13431478
>>13431646
>>13431808
As I was saying to some Anon in a different thread today, "intent", "actions" and "consequences" are not the same thing. Kira and Lacus may be characterized as the heroes in an unjust world filled with violence, but in their portrayal, they come off as terrorists who are fighting for their ideals, accountable to nobody.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:22:14 No.13431861 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13431736
>That's pretty much the only time they do anything barbaric in the entire show

They've been doing that shit throughout the entire show.

They attack the Minerva for no reason, causing complete chaos and contributing to the deaths of the Orb pilots they were trying to "save" in addition to committing an act of war against ZAFT.

Athrun tries to explain this to them and Kira's response amounts to "Don't care. We want Durandal."

Athrun then pulls an insane conspiracy theory out his ass to rationalize running back to Kira when it's clear Durandal isn't just going to let Kira attack whoever he wants.

But it's okay as long as they pretend to be peaceful and friendly while they're doing it? It doesn't work that way.

>They don't pat themselves on the back that their enemy was dealt a major blow and it wasn't even them that did it.
Kira and Athrun immediately smile at each other, high-five, and say "Now let's go get Durandal." As the immediate follow-up to watching Djibril vaporize PLANT on TV. They come off looking completely crazy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:23:51 No.13431877 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13428198
>But had they had a whole show worked out before it started instead of 13 episodes and nothing other writers would have been able to reign in Morosawa a bit and they wouldn't constantly be late with deadlines because this would have been done already.
Morosawa isn't the sole reason you can't compress the entire production for a 50 episode TV series into under 18 months and succeed guy. There's a reason they've only made one single run 50 episode Gundam TV series since.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:34:33 No.13431959 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431985 >>13431997

The worse part is deep down I know you're all right.

But....my Seed heroes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:37:58 No.13431985 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431993

>>13431959
>>But....my Seed heroes.
What? You like Kira and Lacus?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:39:13 No.13431993 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13431999

>>13431985

Yes fuck you all I liked them in Seed, back in the long forgotten time before Destiny existed and it ended with them saving everyone.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:39:57 No.13431997 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13431959
(Pats head)

We all have a moment like this. I remember this show back when I was a kid, Radio Free Roscoe. Four teens make a pirate radio station to vent their frustrations about their new high school after one of them gets kicked off the school radio station. The show paints them as heroes and the school radio as way too strict, but when you get older you realize that... it's a fucking school radio. Of course it's going to be heavily restricted, and our heroes are breaking multiple laws. The series becomes a little more gray at that moment, despite how things are portrayed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:40:40 No.13431999 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13432003

>>13431993
They were both shitty characters in SEED. Don't fool yourself. Especially fucking Lacus: what the fuck is a pop singer doing as the leader of a terrorist organization?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:42:07 No.13432003 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>13432009 >>13432010

>>13431999

Seed was my first Gundam show and I was 10 years old and I liked them and am nostalgic for it and fuck you all I will cut the throats of anyone who has a problem with that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:44:49 No.13432009 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13432003
I don't have a problem with that, just I have a problem with someone saying "These characters can't be villains. They are too nice."

If you like SEED, more power to you. I personally would rather watch SEED over Wing, AGE or Aldnoah Zero.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Oct 2015 20:45:07 No.13432010 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>13432003
>not having Wing has your first Gundam show
I mean it's not great either, but at least it isn't horrendous.

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