/tg/ - Traditional Games » Thread #43300895

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:11:19 No.43300895 View Reply Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43300905 >>43300924 >>43301352 >>43302532 >>43302656 >>43304381 >>43317369 >>43317434 >>43319676 >>43324748 >>43328358 >>43329521 >>43331651

Would the Empire, with its systematic conscription and recruitment of soldiers, and the ability to field armies of pike-men and riflemen, be able the Bretonnian knights?

Would Imperialism allow for a superior conscription, fielding, and logistical supply advantage over the feudal system of Brettonia? Surely having a much stronger aristocracy and merchant class, a professional standing army, would give them the advantage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:12:02 No.43300905 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43300895
Yes but the brettonians also have the protection of their Godess

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:12:53 No.43300913 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301103

Im pretty sure the main reason the Empire never curbstomps Bretonnia is that Bretonnia has bullshit magic

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:13:33 No.43300924 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301055

>>43300895
whats bretonds advantage over the empire?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:21:58 No.43301055 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328115

>>43300924
Magic and plot

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:25:36 No.43301103 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301144

>>43300913
well that and the external and internal threats that the empire faces make invading a mostly friendly neighbouring kingdom a fucking pointless waste of resources and manpower

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:28:47 No.43301144 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301189 >>43301283 >>43302620 >>43323152

>>43301103
What I'm wondering is how Imperial culture and economy doesn't just bleed into Bretonnian society.

Why the lords or peasants don't get more uppity at seeing how much better the other half lives in the Empire.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:31:48 No.43301189 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301267

>>43301144
Because they don't...usually?

There's a huge mountain range between the two, I assume the most the two see of each other is trade.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:37:08 No.43301267 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301309 >>43301322 >>43324386

>>43301189
But that's exactly it.

The feudal lords are going to be seeing all the luxury goods, crafts, and fine things and just how damn wealthy Imperial merchants and aristocrats are.

And then compare that to what they get from their serfs of turnip farmers and potato eaters.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:38:06 No.43301283 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301450

>>43301144
It's stated that the elite doesn't want to the imperial culture (that obviously extended into other human nations like estalia and tilea, closer to the empire than to Bretonnia). The bretonnian elite probably lives better than the imperial elite, since thanks to not accepting imperial values they keep their brutal oppressive society. The bretonnian peasants don't ever get an opinion for some reason.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:39:57 No.43301309 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301450

>>43301267
But they can get all that just buying it, selecting what is fancy but ok by their cultural standards?

They're a warrior elite, and zealots, not industrial bourgeois.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:41:00 No.43301322 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43301267
>And then compare that to what they get from their serfs of turnip farmers and potato eaters.
This is exactly how the Bretonnian lords like it. The peasantry exists to do all the menial unskilled labor. Everything else can be outsourced, and paid for with dragon/araby gold.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:42:53 No.43301348 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>tfw I will finally be able to remove elf lovers in Call of warhammer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:43:01 No.43301351 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302442

Another thing is the advantage one would have by breaking the system.

It takes years to train a knight how to fight in thick, heavy armor, and use his sword with great skill while riding a horse.

And only perhaps a few months or weeks to train some peasants on how to use a pike or a rifle to kill that knight. And you don't have to pay them nearly as much. Not to mention how cannons can easily bring down old, small castles.

But I take it the Bretonian lords don't infight as much. If at all. Complete and total unity in maintaining their static system and culture. In a way, they're a medieval NK.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:43:08 No.43301352 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43300895
Pretty sure that the empire could wipe out literally every human nation to the west of the worlds edge mountains if they wanted to, and be only defeated if they unite against it. They just have no reason to attack other human nations in the south when there's literally human chaos whorshippers in the north and monsters everywhere.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:50:06 No.43301450 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301988

>>43301283
>>43301309
Ultimately they'd still not be as wealthy as their Imperial counterparts, since their system is much less advanced than the empire.

Would they be proportionally more wealthy compared to the lower classes, since they control so much? Yes. But not wealthier. Just that everyone else is much poorer.

The Empires system would produce a larger amount of currency, resources, and national wealth, resulting in much better trade. Their wealthier, larger populace would provide more taxes, as well as more business for merchants and aristocrats, meaning the Empire is able to purchase much more and of higher quality than Bretonnia as a whole.

But I can understand that they not especially caring about not being as fancy or having the same standard of luxuries as the Empire because of cultural, ideological reasons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:54:24 No.43301518 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302442 >>43303041 >>43324598

Two things stopped the Empire from owning the Brets.

1) The Brets Navy is larger and better equipped than the Empire one, also better trained.

2) Only one solid pass allows entry from the Empire into bret and it's guarded by a fortress filled to the brim with Flying Knights.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:25:51 No.43301988 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302033

>>43301450
There's pragmatical reasons too. Most of those good for "nothing" knights have literally no role in the society you're describing, or have a comparatively worst role. Societies evolve but it's way harder for individuals, only a few gifted can completely adapt. Don't you understand that most of the knights stop being at the top of the hierarchy if all this happens? Don't you understand that the Bretonnian elite as a whole would be wealthier, but not the actual members of this elite? So in the same way the peasant is controlled in detriment of profit, the merchants and the trade are too. Because the objective is ruling, supremacy, and profit only one of it's consecuences.

The apporach of the bretonnian elite is completely pragmatic beyond ideology and culture, if egoistical. What warhammer doesn't give us is how bretonnian merchants and peasants do about that and why Leoncoeur has not been guillotined yet.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:27:53 No.43302033 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43301988
>is what* bretonnian merchants [...] do about that

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:30:21 No.43302071 Report Delete

Quoted By:

How exactly does the Empire's economy work at all? If every year or whatever they're dying in droves defending their land against innumerable enemies how does its population remain alive enough to resist it and do any non-war activities?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:55:05 No.43302442 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302643

>>43301351
>But I take it the Bretonian lords don't infight as much. If at all. Complete and total unity in maintaining their static system and culture. In a way, they're a medieval NK.
They infight all the time! That's a big part of their politics. Where did you get the idea that they don't?

>>43301518
IIRC there are two major passes, plus the Wasteland to the north.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:00:22 No.43302532 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302882

>>43300895
it's amazing what having a radioactive wasteland full of rat-men between your nations does to keep territorial aggression to a minimum.

so, yeah, if the Empire and Bretonnia are transplanted onto some arbitrarily large plain, to duke it out, sure, Empire wins, real easy.

but since the Brettonians only have to worry about Araby and the Wood Elves as far as borders go, and the Empire has to worry about Literally Everyone Except For Maybe The Wood Elves as far as its borders go, any in-universe all-out war between the two is going to involve the Brettonians being able to bring a whole lot more force to bear than their Empire counterparts, and a tidal wave of serf levies has a quality all its own.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:05:52 No.43302620 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43301144
Look at Warhammer RPG 2nd edition for that part of the fluff. It's stated that certain Bretonian provinces have secret societies composed by outlaws and colaborationist peasants seeking to destroy the feudal system and turn Bretonia into a sort of federation; these are generally hunted down by the nobility because muh privilege and because an awful lot of these societies are ruled from the shadows by Tzeentchian cultists looking to undermine the mortal kingdoms from within, or by agents hired by the Imperial nobles whose only objective is to weaken Bretonia so the Empire can easily take over the country.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:06:50 No.43302643 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302689

>>43302442
>They infight all the time! That's a big part of their politics. Where did you get the idea that they don't?
The fact that a lord doesn't just go.

"Well, I could spend 10000 gold to pay for some very highly trained knights to fight Lord Rival McNemesis.

Or spen 1000 gold to arm and raise some peasants and have an expert train them how to wield guns, crossbows, and pikes just like the Empire does all the time."

Or generally, everything else that ended the reign of Feudalism/Knights as the major form of soldier like it did both in IRL and in the Empire. Lest we forget Agincourt.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:07:28 No.43302656 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43300895
Yes, in fact IRL 1500s Europeans took over 100% of all lands previously held by 1400s Europeans. The advantage was total.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:09:03 No.43302689 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302788 >>43302879 >>43332260

>>43302643
>spent money
>on knights

That's not how works, the knights pay themselves everything and bring the peasants you just give them land and shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:13:57 No.43302766 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43312443

Feudalism is much more stable than you are lead to believe.

Remember that France and Russia maintained what is in essence Fuedal systems up until their respective revolutions. And the latter was well into the modern age when it did.

I think the issue you're speaking of is the military reliance on knights and why that didn't fall to the wayside in the face of much more effective and efficient professional soldiers. But as other's have stated, change isn't as easy when you've constantly got rat people and lizardmen knocking on your doors.

North Korea and the Soviet Union were able to maintain being a backwards backwater for so long because they always had the "threat" of the West and Capitalism as a good scapegoat to prevent major social and economic change.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:15:15 No.43302788 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302880

>>43302689
Well, if Knights were so much better and cheaper than having a professional standing army why there was such a huge shift in exactly the opposite in Europe.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:22:27 No.43302879 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302947 >>43303781 >>43332260

>>43302689
Then think of it from the Knights perspective.

All that money going into the armor, the sword, the horse, and the years of training. All of it just to be ended by a bunch of cheaply paid unarmored guys with arrows and guns and pikes.

Why not get more of those guys instead?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:22:29 No.43302880 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302945

>>43302788
Mostly desire for control. You don't want your army to be composed by the best soldiers in the world (and feudal nobility was not even close) if it's actually a private army controlled by warlords that can or cannot obey the government. Specially if you are the government, but also if you're not unless you're the warlord or part of his army.

Also knights and other nobles were never the major part of the army, they bringed low-rank proffesionals with them. Like the men-at-arms. The problem is that warfare evolved in a way where the men-at-arms and the knight started to be hard to differentiate in the battlefield (not outside it) and in fact the low class soldiers were often better prepared for war than some of the noble warriors. This doesn't happen in Bretonia for some reason.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:22:35 No.43302882 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43327916

>>43302532
I get the impression that you aren't very familiar with which nation borders which

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:24:29 No.43302912 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43310364

i love it when claps try to comprehend medieval stuff.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:26:06 No.43302945 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302986

>>43302880
>This doesn't happen in Bretonia for some reason.
Which is made even more odd because it did happen in the Empire.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:26:19 No.43302947 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43307194 >>43329479

>>43302879
The golden age of knight in plate armor was when infantry was fighting with guns and pikes.

If you ask why Bretonnian man at arms don't have guns, then well it's because bretonnian society doesn't make a lot of sense tbh. The level of paranoia of the higher class is so high that it's only coherent for them to be trained like shit.

The literal only shit that bugs me a little (apart from the parody society) is why there's no pistol bretonnian knights, but I suppose it would ruin the theme.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:29:39 No.43302986 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303041 >>43303077

>>43302945
It happens in the empire, tilea and estalia for what we know. Maybe even Araby.

But the thing is that imperial society is very different, you have a lot of merchant cities. This is even more obvious in the other two soutern human nations. There's nobody to supress social advances, for whatever reason. On the other hand, one definitory trait of Bretonia is social rights supression.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:30:49 No.43303005 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328172

Theres no reason to believe the bretts even have better standard knights than the empire. The knights from the empire should be BETTER equipped with BETTER forged steel.

But theres really no reason for the empire to crush the bretts. They keep the western flank safe and on several occasions send forth armoured mounted cannon fodder that work miracles.

I recall that the peasant who build the trebuchet recieved 3 copper coins and a fattened pig. He was probably the richest peasant in the entire realm.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:33:32 No.43303041 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303091 >>43303109 >>43303143 >>43331550

>>43302986
How many of those Merchant cities are coastal cities btw?

Would it still make sense for Bretts to even have a better navy as >>43301518 mentioned?

How do they beat the Empire concerning the amount of timber and number of sailors they can conscript?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:36:19 No.43303077 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302986
>There's nobody to supress social advances, for whatever reason. On the other hand, one definitory trait of Bretonia is social rights supression.
It's less "there is nobody to do it" and more "Suppression of social rights and progress is one of the top three priorities of the ruling elite of Britonnia".
Also, the writers want them to be hypocrites.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:37:05 No.43303091 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303144 >>43331550

>>43303041

Well personally I think its stupid that a nation with cannons on ships could be beat by the bretts but I guess you could say that the imperial navy is tiny since they only need to protect the northern coast and they concentrate that mostly on important cities since most of hte north coast is empty.

The Brettonians have a huge ass coastline and thus have a large navy to defend it.

Also the lady protects them all

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:38:18 No.43303109 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303140 >>43303199 >>43326205

>>43303041
Industrial capacity does not always mean a better navy, or even a better army.

Remember it only took 300 Athesian ships to beat 1000 Persian ships at Salamis. And Japan inflicted a major naval victory against the industrially superior Russia at Tsushima.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:40:24 No.43303140 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43303109
>Athesian
*Athenian

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:40:45 No.43303143 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303253 >>43331550

>>43303041
I don't know what justification does the lore give, but no it doesn't make much sense at all for Bretonnia to have a decent stable navy.

Anyways, it looks like the Empire mostly relies on internal trade, specially fluvial. This makes a lot of sense considering it's based on the HRE. But the guys who wrote this wanted to have ebin chaos vikings so probably the sea trade is dangerous and probably limited. That could explain why Bretonnia has a better fleet; they don't have a good fleet, it's the Empire the one that has a shitty sea fleet.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:40:48 No.43303144 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43303091
Bretonnian ships have cannon galore. There are no knights at sea.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:44:08 No.43303199 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43303109
That's because the "persians" (almost no persians there tbh, as they relied on subjects for the fleet) got turbo memed on. Also the phoenician ships were probably worst for warfare, most of them being designed for trade.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:48:20 No.43303253 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303311 >>43331550

>>43303143
>but no it doesn't make much sense at all for Bretonnia to have a decent stable navy.
Britonnia needs to import basically all goods that require skilled labor, as well as a way to go crusade in Araby/get eaten by lizard men because some questing knight found an old map with a dinosaur head scribbled on the bottom half of it. Shipwrights are about the only trade they allow there since it keeps them from needing other trades.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:52:15 No.43303311 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303948

>>43303253
But who built that fleet? The king has not the power to do so, and the lords and the cities would probably build personal smaller fleets.

Still better than what the empire has, I suppose.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:17:22 No.43303781 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302879
Because Bretonnian Bullshit elf magic is pretty good at disabling 'dishonourable' blackpowder weaponry.
Furthermore the centuries of malnourishment and inbreeding amongst the peasantry of Bretonnia has made them pretty retarded; the ones who show intelligence and bravery tend to die, or runaway to more welcoming places, or become outlaws. One got knighted once, the other Knights had him killed in a "Hunting accident". If they're lucky enough to live in one of the port cities they might do alright, there is a bit more social mobility there

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:25:36 No.43303948 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43304004

>>43303311
Marienburg has a good navy, Bretonian oort cities probably have a lot of contact with traders from there.
The Bretonnian port cities are among the few places in the country where social mobility is a thing, so the merchants there, who actually have money and ships have an arrangement whereby they pay and run the navy, and in the return theking stops the nobles from welching on any debts they have with such "peasants"

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:28:22 No.43304004 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43304086 >>43304350

>>43303948
That sounds like a major gateway for the kind of social change the Bretonnians are trying to keep suppressed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:32:42 No.43304086 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43304004
That's why Bretonnian knights kill you and your family across three generations if you're a peasant doing anything above your station.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:42:51 No.43304289 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43304484 >>43306398

So at the end of the day what to take away is.

>Bretonnia is bullshit
>elf magic keeps them stagnate
>stagnation allows wood elf shittiers to control their population easier so they keep it that way

I'm angry, angry about Elves.
Almost every major problem in the warhammer world stems from Elves. Iv been playing vermin tide recently and they really nailed how shitty the Elves are.

Elf holocaust when?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:45:42 No.43304350 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43315374

>>43304004
It's to be expected from those privileged merchants to be as elitist, if not more, than the knights. After all, their status is way more weak.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:47:50 No.43304381 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43300895
Doesn't matter now. The Empire and Bretonnia are dead now.

The form of government is Space Marines.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:54:27 No.43304484 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43304289
>Elf holocaust when?

Some months ago.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 21:01:49 No.43304615 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43304800 >>43328205

In actual battles, Empire should buttfuck Brettonia so fucking hard that even Gilles le Betron will feel the pain in his rectum.
But really, there's no point in doing that. The Empire has nothing to gain down there, it's stated several times that the farmland is nothing to write home about, the mountains are fucking mountains and the woodland is A) Magical, B) Infested with Elves and C) hates your guts.
And once you HAVE Brettonia, great, now you can deal with even MORE Beastmen crawling out of the woodworks and coming down the mountains. And for what? So Tilea and Estalia can be even more annoying?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 21:13:46 No.43304800 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43304615
/thread.
There is no point for the Empire to be at war with Bretonnia.
Also, this thread makes me realize how advanced and tolerant the Empire was, allowing (a very restricted form of) social mobility and non-humans to live freely, unlike other human (and non-human) nations.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 22:50:31 No.43306398 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43329082

>>43304289
As opposed to lotr, where they're one of the best things around outside of nunenoreans.

>But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf and slew him with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death.

10/10 would adventure with.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 23:46:13 No.43307194 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302947
Giles was killed supposedly by some form of range weaponry therefore nobility cannot use it as it is the weapon of a coward

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 04:12:48 No.43309816 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43317265

The Empire could easily defeat Bretonnia. There are multiple reasons why they don't that aren't magic.

1. Imperial nobility frequently intermarries with Bretonnian nobility, leading to several house alliances between the nations.

2. Despite their long-standing rivalry, Bretonnia is the only nation (other than Kislev) willing to stand alongside the Empire against a common enemy, unlike Araby, Estalia or Tilea.

3. Bretonnia is an excellent buffer to greenskin attacks, as well as any other attempted invasions from the South-West.

4. The wine is pretty great

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 05:53:18 No.43310364 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328483

>>43302912

Fantasy is more popular in Bongland and Yurop :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 10:25:54 No.43312443 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43317259

>>43302766
>Remember that France and Russia maintained what is in essence Fuedal systems up until their respective revolutions.
I won't touch upon the latter because Russia was, up until its revolution, seen as Europe's backwards cousin that nobody really likes to talk about during family dinners.

As for France, to what degree it was feudalism during the twillight of the monarchy was highly questionable. The Hundred Years War already saw the knightly class almost completely replaced by lowborn gendarmes on the field of battle, the various kings in varying degrees increased the power of the nobility and the nobles effectively became a leisure class with their power in the General Estates being the only thing of political importance left.

The Revolution did not happen because the peasants were upset over the nobility as is often assumed, but because educated lowborns saw that the nobility had become completely superfluous. Feudalism was gone, but the feudal element of the nobility remained.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 14:16:13 No.43315374 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43304350
Basically this; the nobles are secure in their nobility, the small Bretonnian merchant class are not. They know that if they push upward too hard, the nobles will come down on them hard, everything they have can be taken away, so instead they aid in keeping the peasantry down, lest they get swept up in any futile attempts at revolution.

Also remember that the Warhammer world is rather lacking in civilisations with which the Bretonnian merchants can trade; the High Elves don't buy much human stuff, Tilea, Estalia, Marienburg etc lack the stability and wealth to be major trading partners, so that leaves the Empire, or trading internally for your livelihood

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 16:15:59 No.43317259 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43312443
>I won't touch upon the latter because Russia was, up until its revolution, seen as Europe's backwards cousin that nobody really likes to talk about during family dinners.
So basically Bretonnia when not talking about them as allies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 16:16:27 No.43317265 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43309816
Do you have sources for the first two statements? Those are news to me.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 16:24:19 No.43317369 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43322572

>>43300895
Feudal and tribal societies have a distinct advantage over centralized ones in that they can continue fighting pretty much indefinitely against invaders because there is no central authority to knock off. The Mongols literally burned Hungary to the ground and still they didn't run the damn place because every time they looked away a local lord set up shop again.

So while you could invade Bretonnia, how exactly would one go around conquering it? They have a functionally unlimited supply of idiots with horses and lances, and ruling the land without the support of local structures is a classic difficulty that faces any conquerer. In the end you'd have to install friendly nobles in feudal positions to retain control of the country, but then all you've done is replaced hostile feudal nobles with scheming feudal nobles.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 16:28:06 No.43317434 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43300895
The Empire could wreck Bretonnia but they'd be destroyed by Chaos/Greenskins/Vampires/whatever on the very next day.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 18:37:45 No.43319676 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43300895
I treat it like the Imperium & Tau. One could wipe out the other but it'd leave them open to attacks from greater threats.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 20:18:17 No.43321583 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43323986 >>43324677 >>43330586

If we look at this from a completely realistic tactical angle.

The Brets win so hard it's almost hilarious.

>Brets outnumber Empire Knights 5 to 1 at least, wearing half plate vs full plate, larger stronger horses.

>Peasents equipped with billhooks, at least as good as halberds and have extremely high Morale. Not lacking in the armor department compared to their knightly fellows.

>Longbows outrange everything the Empire filed bar cannon fire, deal heavy damage to the mostly quilted armored Empire state troops

And here we come to the crux of the argument, the fantastical parts.

>Brets have magical forcefields on the Knights.
>Empire have shooty wizards, Brets have supporty wizards
>Empire have cannons and birb cavalry

And here is the main reason why brets win.

>Brets have Pegasus Cavalry.

Say goodbye to those cannons, because super fast super hard hitting flying Cavalry just rode up your artillery placements asshole.

namename

namename Tue 27 Oct 2015 21:13:16 No.43322572 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43329472 >>43329530

>>43317369
It wouldnt be hard to win over the peasents and then you have people to fight and work the land.
Eventually the nobles would die or fuck off somewhere else and the Empire splits Brettonia into two or three provinces.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 21:27:28 No.43322789 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328108

Also people seem to be forgetting that the Empire isn't an actual unified empire, it's Fantasy Holy Roman Empire - approximately 300 and some city states of various shapes and sizes all loosely allied in a unified defense pact and with a figurehead Emperor they all nominally obey when he's not too annoying / demanding / far away / bothersome.

In order to even have an invasion of Bretonnia, you'd need to organize it, and so you'd have to deal with all the various inter-married nobles from the closer Imperial city states going all "Woah, woah, woah, you can't just march an army through here to murder my cousins sisters brother in law!". The further imperial cities wouldn't want to give as much material / men / money because it's too fucking far away, they've got better things to do and seriously, get a grib Franz, why the fuck should we care?

The Holy Roman Empire was the biggest poliitcally unified group of people in European history for hundreds of years, and they were absolutely surrounded by random feudal societies for much of that. And yet, at no point did they all just decide to go "Fuck it, those Danes up in Denmark think they're so great with their monarchy, let's go kill 'em".

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 21:50:20 No.43323152 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43324979

>>43301144
Why was Russia still a backwards, feudal nation while its Western neighbors going through the Renaissance? That's a rhetorical question obviously, the point being that these kind of disparities existed in real life so this scenario seems entirely plausible to me

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 22:37:08 No.43323986 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43324700 >>43328412

>>43321583
How can one man be so wrong?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 23:00:50 No.43324386 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43301267
Because bret lords give no fucks about that sort of stuff. If they want shit they go crusade some motherfuckers or kill a monster and take its hoard

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 23:14:48 No.43324598 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43301518
>laughing Marius Leitdorf.jpg

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 23:19:44 No.43324677 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328250

>>43321583
>Empire handgunners decimate the Pegasuses before they even reach the empire's lines

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 23:21:18 No.43324700 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43323986
He's a Bretonnian Knight, obviously.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Arminius-Rote-Fahne.jpg, 463KiB, 1280x720

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 23:24:43 No.43324748 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43325004

>>43300895
idk, i pick Brets solely because they look cooler. seriously, ive always griped with the empire because of their goofy ass get up. looks like cracker jack goes to war or something.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 23:38:16 No.43324979 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43323152
Or the North Korea analog as well. And communism in general.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO soldat.jpg, 414KiB, 1068x1492

Anonymous Tue 27 Oct 2015 23:39:40 No.43325004 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43326611

>>43324748

Not wanting to look this fab.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 00:56:09 No.43326205 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43303109
>Industrially superor.

Japs were using brand new British built ships while the Russians were using French hand-me-downs and their own designs. Russia was not industrially superior during the Russo-Japanese War. In fact, they were about the same.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 01:27:17 No.43326611 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43325004
Some of those look like they'd be a bitch to paint, and I've spent all night painting Clanrats

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 03:44:04 No.43327869 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43329962

All of this discussion is moot since we're going to be able to run simulations of this in about 6 months

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 03:52:48 No.43327916 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328182 >>43328958

>>43302882
I don't think I've ever seen a fantasy map that is more blatantly a rip-off of the real world map than this one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:21:26 No.43328108 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328163

>>43322789
tey did try to conquer Denmark but they were defeated at Dannevirke. And later the danish kings became count of Holsten a part of Germany. So this meant that it would devolve into a civil war.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:22:57 No.43328115 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43301055
And horses that are just leagues better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:29:58 No.43328163 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328108
Also they tried for a long time to make Denmark a vassal state to the H.R.E. One instance in particular was when King Valdemar I,King Svend III Grathe and King Knud V. The three kings had been in civil war and went to the emperor to have him be a mediator. It ended with him dividing Denmark into three parts, but all subjects of H.R.E.

This did not last as King Svend III Grathe tried to assassinate the two others in the at the time capital Roskilde. King Knud V got offed but King Valdemar I survived and later defeated King Svend III Grathe.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:31:48 No.43328172 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328221 >>43332519

>>43303005
>I recall that the peasant who build the trebuchet recieved 3 copper coins and a fattened pig
I read that passage yesterday. It was *two* copper coins and a fattened pig, and it was said to be more wealth than he could have hoped to see in a lifetime.

While that's funny, it makes no god damned sense from an economic point of view.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:32:29 No.43328182 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43327916
That's the point, dickhead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:35:47 No.43328205 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43304615
Do recall that even the weakest knights have force fields that cannonballs will bounce off of 1/3 of the time, horses that will give them the charge against empire cavalry every time, and that hellish lance formation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:37:50 No.43328221 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328263

>>43328172
>it makes no god damned sense from an economic point of view.
Sure it does. Peasants aren't paid for basically any of the work they do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:39:59 No.43328236 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>Bret land was wrecked easily by the Skaven
>The Empire fought admirably against the main host of Chaos and for a moment stood their ground before being swept beneath the hordes.

Empire is superior.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:42:05 No.43328250 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328412

>>43324677
>Half-assed riflemen can totally destroy heavily armoured flying skirmishers at long range

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:43:36 No.43328263 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328291

>>43328221
Right, but then where does everyone else's money come from?

Then again, I suppose the nobles are the ones who mint money in the first place. Still, it seems like there would be a lot of money going out of Bretonnia and very little coming in.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:48:22 No.43328291 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328263
Bretonnians make good arms and armour, have a large navy and a lot of land. They probably pull in a lot of wealth through trade.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:03:05 No.43328358 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43300895

Apparently they didn't, as they were pretty much fugged in End Times. Along with every other human nation that wasn't the Empire.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:12:27 No.43328412 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328427 >>43328502 >>43328520 >>43328617 >>43329377

>>43323986
Care to prove me wrong.

>>43328250
>Handguns are 24"
>Flying movement is 20"
>Pegasus have heavy armour and barding
>Can use cover

Let's say you're taking up a defensive position with terrain to block your flanks.

BAM, Pegasus now using that terrain, your handgunners are so far away they barely hit and Bret Armor is proof enough to stop many bullets.

How the fuck do you stop the Pegasus now from destroying your artillery and the ONE advantage the Empire can levy?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:15:10 No.43328427 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328412
You sound like you may not have realized I was being sarcastic. We are completely in agreement.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1395365273999.gif, 1MiB, 266x268

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:25:03 No.43328483 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43310364

you realize that bongland is in yurop?

so when you Bongland and Yurop it makes u look stupid

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 10steamtank.jpg, 49KiB, 600x449

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:27:29 No.43328502 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328412
>How the fuck do you stop the Pegasus now from destroying your artillery and the ONE advantage the Empire can levy?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:29:52 No.43328520 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328564

>>43328412

also you realise the artillery itself will be firing at them peg knights?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:35:14 No.43328564 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328585 >>43328623 >>43328631

>>43328520
You're gonna waste your great cannons on killing one pegasus knight per shot, when there are several juicy lance formations rolling down the field toward your troops? If so, then the knights have more than done their job already.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:38:53 No.43328585 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328647

>>43328564
The Skaven had no issues plucking the flying horse things from the sky.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:44:30 No.43328617 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328412
>How the fuck do you stop the Pegasus now from destroying your artillery and the ONE advantage the Empire can levy
Demigryphs and griffins?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:45:37 No.43328623 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328647

>>43328564
>thinking cannons are that effect agaisnt models with a 5++ and stop if you dont kill one

did you even play 8th?

also bret players usually always went second so the empire player got a free round of shooting anyways

also you do realise that hellblaster volley guns are a thing aswell?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:47:06 No.43328631 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328647

>>43328564
>steam tank into bret knights

have fun

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:50:18 No.43328647 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43328655 >>43330093

>>43328623
>did you even play 8th?
No, I never did. Did you even pass 8th grade? Because your post is mostly unintelligible.

>>43328631
How is a steam tank going to chase down fliers?

>>43328585
I don't know what you're talking about, but I assume they didn't do it using cannons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:52:10 No.43328655 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328647
>No, I never did

ok we're done here, you don't have a clue what ur talking about

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 05:59:30 No.43328699 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43329443

Finally s thread that talks truth to power about how shit the Brettonians are. They aren't honorable, they're a bunch of self aggrandizing self serving pricks who explicitly act against the interests of their people to maintain power.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1444847550116.jpg, 46KiB, 689x602

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 06:46:42 No.43328958 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43327916
more news at eleven

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:13:50 No.43329082 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43329123 >>43332393

>>43306398
except for Feanor, who was a bitch boy
Eärandil all the way

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:21:42 No.43329123 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43329082
>Eärandil
He was mongrel not elf.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 07:34:28 No.43329210 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43329407

The Empire has several advantages but the Bretonians aren't without their own.

Their honor isn't merely words, it's actually protection against the strongest blows. It won't stop everything but it will blunt bullets even more than full plate already does.

The Bretonian Knights have full plate, an easily requisitioned force of decent archers and a fantastic navy.

If they both decided to try and wipe out the other they'd likely end up both destroyed as neither can stand without the other against all the foes about.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:03:19 No.43329377 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328412
>normally only a few men can fire in terrain that blocks the flanks
>now the entire fucking unit can fire at the Pegasus
>who are flying "horses", who WON'T want to get torn to shreds by flying hot metal,

Suuuuuuure.

>bretonbnian armor doing anything against empire marksmanship

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:09:17 No.43329407 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43329467

>>43329210
Bretonnian knights do not have full plate. Heavy armour is the best they can get. Full plate is better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:14:22 No.43329443 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328699
As opposed to the communist utopia known as The Empire.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO MA-13th-Century-Templars.jpg, 106KiB, 545x767

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:19:38 No.43329467 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43329407
Yeah, bretons wear something like pic related while imperials use 16th century armor.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:20:14 No.43329472 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43322572
Execpt, your assuming that bretonnian peasants are normal people, instead of the horrible inbred retard mutants that they are.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:20:56 No.43329479 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302947
Bretonnia used to have cannons btw.
Then they said Bretonnians don't like warmachines.
Then trebuchets became the most natural thing for them to have.
Goes to show once again how you can't take Warhammer too seriously.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:28:14 No.43329521 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43300895
>Can renaissance military beat medieval military?

I wonder

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 08:29:27 No.43329530 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43322572
>It wouldnt be hard to win over the peasents
Not unless you're blessed by m'lady.

And an empire going all-in against bretonnia would be leaving themselves open to attack from other, considerably less amicable nations and races. There's really no point when the two are basically allies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 09:32:27 No.43329962 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43327869
>not playing geheimnisnacht
>not trying unify the empire while louis the young laughs at you
>not reveal your alliance to khorne to summon a demon host to wipe that grin of his dtupid face

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Ratling_Gunner_Portrait.png, 999KiB, 787x1094

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 09:53:32 No.43330093 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328647
>I don't know what you're talking about, but I assume they didn't do it using cannon
Skaven have Machine Guns in canon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 09:56:13 No.43330112 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43330248

Really cannons and smoothbore firearms would be horrible weapons to try and take down small units of flying troops with.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 10:13:10 No.43330248 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43331941

>>43330112
Now long pikes supported by smoothbore firearms and crossbows is another thing altogether.

Especially since they have no ranged flying cavalry.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 10:57:08 No.43330586 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43330734

>>43321583
>Brets outnumber Empire Knights 5 to 1 at least, wearing half plate vs full plate, larger stronger horses.
Fucking do they? So, every upity son of every shitty noble gets a horse, a helmet and a sword. Great, so does every secend noble son in the Empire. Per capita there might be more knights, but do you have any fucking idea how many Knightly Orders there are and how big the Empire is?
And even if, IF there are more knights: Where does this get you? Knights alone don't win you wars.

>Peasents equipped with billhooks, at least as good as halberds and have extremely high Morale. Not lacking in the armor department compared to their knightly fellows.
You mean the shittily trained, underfed and underequiped peasants, those guys? Also, don't they have LD6? That means they pretty much run as soon as you look at them the wrong way.

>Longbows outrange everything the Empire filed bar cannon fire, deal heavy damage to the mostly quilted armored Empire state troops
They actually have longer range than Crossbowmen or Handgunners, which means they'll spend some more time marching up to them before shooting them to bits.

Just leaving out Magic, Empire will pound the Brets. You know why? Because the Empire's Tactics supplanted the Bret's in fucking real life.

As for magic...

>Brets have magical forcefields on the Knights.
True. If they spend praying long enough that the opposing army can march up right in their stupid fucking faces, which leaves the bulk of their army, the peasants, completely unprotected. You have the ranged advantage on your bows? You mean you HAD the range advantage of your bows.

>Empire have shooty wizards, Brets have supporty wizards
This is so fucking wrong.
Brets have supporty wizards, Empires has ALL THE WIZARDS.

>Empire have cannons and birb cavalry
Also, heavier armored knights, better equipped and trained troops, deadly fast cavalry, priests of a warrior god, giant gatling guns, hawachas, mortars and huge magical engines FUCK YOU

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 11:09:23 No.43330734 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43330586
>Knights alone don't win you wars
In real life maybe, but in heroic fiction that's the opposite. The Errantry wars netted mostly positive results.

Bret knights are quite renowned in-setting, even by the Empire.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 12:38:27 No.43331550 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43303041
>>43303091
>>43303143
>>43303253
Bretonnia actually has a major coastline.
Breatonnia has to worry about Dark Elf raids, Chaos warband raids and the naval powers presesnt in Tilea,Estalia and Araby whereas the Empire doesn't have to worry too much about attacks by sea. It makes perfect sense that Bretonnian merchants if not the Bretonnian crown would actually invest in a strong Naval defense. And according to the army book Knights are forbidden to use ranged equipment so they suppress the use of firearms in their peasant levies but the Bretonnian Navy is perfectly fine using cannons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 12:48:04 No.43331651 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43332194 >>43334223

>>43300895
Before 5e, Bretonnia was in the middle of conquering the Empire.
6e shifted it to fighting Arabs so a loss while Chaos buttfucked the Empire. All conflict between the two kinda vanished so Chaos could go from lurking eventual horror to jumpscare everpresent horror.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Pikes.jpg, 113KiB, 517x211

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 13:15:14 No.43331941 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43330248
Pikes especially since they get +1 initiative vs flyers, though +6 vs cavalry.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 13:36:25 No.43332194 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43334223

>>43331651
>Before 5e, Bretonnia was in the middle of conquering the Empire.

lel no. Where the fuck did you get that idea?
Brets didn't even make it into 4th edition, and in 3rd they were falling apart from their prior glories. 2nd and 1st they were not even a thing along with most of the warhammer world as we currently know it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 13:42:03 No.43332260 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302879
>>43302689

Guys, guys, you're expecting a Warhammer world to make internal sense.

They don't do that,

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 13:51:12 No.43332393 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43329082
>Feanor the Furious a bitch boy

A few Balrogs said that to his face and look what happened to them.

And that is to say nothing of his female cousin and his God-laming half brother Fingolfin.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 14:03:00 No.43332519 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43328172
A really fat pig is a pretty big thing bruv.

Sure, they ain't no cow but you get a sow with that pig and you got a rich peasant investment.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 28 Oct 2015 16:04:18 No.43334223 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43332194
>>43331651
I'm interested in a source on this as well.

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