/tg/ - Traditional Games » Thread #43301395

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:46:45 No.43301395 View Reply Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301718 >>43302561 >>43302750

>I listen to a number of podcasts, and have heard the near-universal complaint about the alpha player problem (or quarterbacking) in cooperative games. I concur that this can ruin the non-alpha players' experience during games, however, I've noticed that it's very trendy for podcasters and reviewers to put the blame on the designer, for not properly addressing the potential for one player to direct others' turns. I call BS.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:53:03 No.43301501 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301535 >>43301588

>you will never be a white haired top tier security guard with mad fashion sense that headlocks feminists
Suicide watch.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:54:00 No.43301512 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301545 >>43302749

I'm with you there, alpha player problems are almost always the fault of the GM and group.

There are a few games which can make that problem worse though, like Rogue Trader in certain situations.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:55:40 No.43301535 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301588

>>43301501
God damn, the cut of that suit, those shoes, that look of calm serenity as he chokes that scum.

This man has much to admire.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 17:56:31 No.43301545 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301608 >>43302511 >>43302750

>>43301512
>like Rogue Trader in certain situations

Isn't Rogue Trader a role playing game?
What is it about the system that encourages someone to take charge?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:00:03 No.43301588 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301639 >>43301653 >>43302469 >>43302569 >>43302902

>>43301501
>>43301535
Wow, LOL at you neckbeard virgins hopping on this fascist "tough" guy's cock. Must take a real man to strangle some 100 lb girl, huh?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:01:06 No.43301608 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43301545
Rogue Trader is set up so that one player is the Rogue Trader in question, and the other players fill certain necessary positions working under him. I would actually argue that the system, rather than exacerbating the issue, nullifies the negative aspect by making it a core aspect of the game. Just make the 'alpha-player' the Rogue Trader. Alternatively, make someone else be the Rogue Trader and have them summarily execute the alpha.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:03:30 No.43301639 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302961

>>43301588
Not them, but it must be real hard to say that behind God knows how many proxies.
Takes real courage, doesn't it?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:04:26 No.43301653 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302961

>>43301588
Hey, I just want to fantasize about him strangling me and MY 100 lb naked body.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:11:48 No.43301718 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43301930 >>43302299 >>43302561

>>43301395
In a game I am in, I am the alpha player.
I would NOT be that if the rest of the players actually did things. The plot is fairly sandboxy, so it is very much player driven. For months now, I have been the only one that wants to go and DO things, get shit done, interact with the world, and fuck, it's goddamn exhausting having to juggle so much shit alone.
But when you pull everyone together and say, "Hey, what do you want to do next, we have X/Y/Z/Q plot hooks that I (usually working alone) found out about", and no one really says anything, yes, I'm gonna tell them what the fuck to do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:22:30 No.43301930 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302132 >>43302211 >>43302561

>>43301718
This is another aspect of the issue. In many groups there has to be an alpha. This doesn't reflect badly on the rest of the group, far from it, but if every decision turns into a group of 5 disparate and extreme characters arguing to consensus, the game is going to drag, and every session will be you getting through a quarter of a dungeon, or half a major conversation. Probably an over-exaggeration there, but many people like to make large amounts of progress in a session, or they consider it to have been largely a waste of time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:34:42 No.43302132 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302211

>>43301930
You think having no "alpha" (fuck I hate that word, so fucking off the mark) is bad? try having 2, especially if their players and/or characters have significantly different viewpoints. Either your GM fucking stops them, or he doesn't and session devolves into 2 assholes arguing about it with each other, trying to get the other one to agree to their plan, instead of just putting it to a vote and moving on.

I did this once w/o realizing I was doing it and I hope I'll never do this again, since it's probably most "that guy" thing I ever did

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:39:02 No.43302211 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302755

>>43301930
I don't see it being an issue that a leader amongst the group rises up; it is the nature of human interaction.
It would be an issue if the leader silences all dissent or includes no one else, but if they are gracious enough to remember everyone involved, then why do these podcasts complain about them?
For example, in my game, we just spent the last 3 sessions achieving almost nothing of note because a character wanted to make a side trip I warned would likely come out to nothing (I know the area and the major figures in it IC). It proceeds to come to nothing, and then I decided to let things go, because it's this guy's bag, y'know? He wanted to come here, he'll make it work.
He didn't, and I finally got sick of it and made him an "offer" he couldn't refuse(I told him that this trip turned out to be a waste, and so X and X will happen, and if he didn't like it, then the entire group WILL stand behind me).
>for what it's worth, IC, we have no love for each other
He agreed, then we moved on. Another player, once back in our home stomping grounds, starting getting his shit done, and while it was like an hour and a half of him rp'ing with npcs, I was happy that SOMEONE was moving forward with their plans.
>>43302132
I have been in this situation, and I usually cut the bullshit short by going ahead and doing what I planned to.
This almost got me killed a few times, but fuck, walk the walk, y'know?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:45:30 No.43302299 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302452

>>43301718
I feel you, it's actually kind of frustrating, sometimes I want to sit back and just go with the flow for a bit. I hadn't realized how bad it was until I had to leave the session for ten minutes or so, they all just sat in awkward silence while the GM asked them what they wanted to talk to the npc we were dealing with about, until I came back and took over.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:55:38 No.43302452 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302299
I've missed only a handful of games since February.
Even in the ones I've been in, I've seen only 2 players show initiative, and only 1 other player even wrote a backstory.
>fucking guys, really

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:56:29 No.43302469 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302961

>>43301588
I actually didn't care half a shit about the headlock. I was mirin' his suave look.
And he probably headlocks 600lbs fat neckbeards in K-pop concerts just as good as feminists anyways.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 18:58:58 No.43302511 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302541

>>43301545
Is she fucking dead?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:00:54 No.43302541 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302593

>>43302511
Nah, wasn't even knocked out, that image is just chosen for maximum shock value.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:02:00 No.43302561 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302613

>>43301395
>>43301718
>>43301930

I wouldn't have termed it as alpha but in our group there are 2 DM's, me and one other guy and it seems everytime we run a campaign that isn't standard dungeon crawling fantasy (Apocalypse world or WoD for example) we naturally become the Alphas only because we want to be proactive while some players don't seem to like asserting themselves and in some cases just plain do nothing,

I've basically rolled a horrible cyborg smuggler/killer with only minimal social skills (mainly around manipulation rather than charm) the group also has a woman in a full prosthetic body designed to look like hot shit and has social enhancer abilities but she never uses them, I have to handle the diplomacy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:02:40 No.43302569 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302961

>>43301588
>guy gets hired to do a job
>does his job
>"wow fucking fascist tough guy"
You are pretty stupid, aren't you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:04:26 No.43302593 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302541
More like kek value.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:05:33 No.43302613 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302690

>>43302561
>I've basically rolled a horrible cyborg smuggler/killer with only minimal social skills (mainly around manipulation rather than charm) the group also ha
I've been in this exact position, because if I don't say it, no one will.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:09:05 No.43302690 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302771

>>43302613
Yeah, I don't WANT to take over the meetings and that but literally nothing would happen if I didn't, I want others to have their time in the spotlight.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:12:33 No.43302749 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302771

>>43301512
> Mfw I was the alpha player in my RT group and I played the Seneschal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:12:40 No.43302750 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302853

>>43301545
>>43301395
These images will never not be funny.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:13:05 No.43302755 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302825

>>43302211
> why do these podcasts complain about them?

Because the people who make podcasts about tabletops are jealous of those who can become group leaders, even in a pretend setting.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:14:18 No.43302771 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302825

>>43302690
I have more than once pulled groups together and asked them if they felt I was stifling their own fun.
>of course they always say no
>>43302749
Far easier than you think. Not every RT is a hyper competent lord of men.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:17:55 No.43302825 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302946 >>43303097

>>43302755
No, it's because if "alpha" is an ass and GM does nothing about it then the session is going to craptown population us at the speed of piss.

>>43302771
>Far easier than you think. Not every RT is a hyper competent lord of men.
I think he was saying exactly this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:20:01 No.43302853 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302750
Police could have practiced a little of this professionalism in Argentina a couple years ago when a mob of rustled lesbians attacked that cathedral.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:24:06 No.43302902 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302961

>>43301588
>Must take a real man to strangle some 100 lb girl, huh?
He's more of a man than the cowards that bow to her kind and their self-destructive scumbag ideology, because women can do no wrong.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:26:12 No.43302946 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303160 >>43303206

>>43302825
>if "alpha" is an ass
What you are describing is a bully, anon.
You have people in this thread, including me, who are LAMENTING the fact that they need to push their groups along to get things accomplished, and rue the fact that it comes with a fuckton of baggage.
I hate sitting around, like I am right now, and thinking, "Alright, I need to pull Azuk aside and chat with him about those orcs he met with, get Zutzo's ear and find out who he is hiding from before we go loud, go to the head of the local militia and make sure our plans to fend off the giants is set, kick in the magic guild's door and tell them to get the shit I ordered from them done, and that they have 9 days to get them ready, where the fuck did those escaped prisoners get to, I thought we wiped out all the cartels in this city, etc, etc".
I sit around and manage the fucking campaign in my head like I'm the GM, because no one else feels like investing themselves into the game and world.
I just wanna play, man. But I can't play and have fun, I have to play and force the thing to move, and hope at some point, rather than fun, I can get satisfaction from things working out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:27:34 No.43302961 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43302995 >>43303070

>>43301639
>>43301653
>>43302469
>>43302569
>>43302902

Always lovely to see some mooks fall for my bait ; ^ )

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:30:13 No.43302995 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302961
>merely pretending

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:35:26 No.43303070 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43302961

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:37:23 No.43303097 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303160

>>43302825
>we shouldn't have cars because if the driver is bad, people will die
>we shouldn't have governments because our laws could be bad
>we should never have leaders because they might be shit, and then everything would be terrible

"Because it can go badly if the people doing are shit" applies to anything in a game or a set of rules.

The real question is: is it going to go badly unless everyone involved is awesome? That's the stuff you want rules against.

Groups of people, especially in dangerous situations (which most tabletops simulate), select leaders. That's just a fact of human interaction. Sometimes, this happens because someone is a power-hungry douchebag. Often, it happens because one person cares more about full-party success than the other group members do.

Designing rules against a basic human instinct is incredibly dumb, unless you're dealing with some experimental game, and that's the point. Individual parties/GMs just have deal with a jackass leader the same way you deal with a party rogue who keeps stealing PCs' stuff, or a lawful stupid paladin, or any other form of That Guy.

Frankly, in terms of spotlight-focus frustration, combat rules that lead to single turns taking 10+ minutes are far worse than a party leader, and more obviously the fault of a game designer. Nothing destroys enjoyment like waiting for half an hour before there's anything your character can do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:41:32 No.43303160 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43303097
>combat rules that lead to single turns taking 10+ minutes
That's the players being shit.
You should have figured out roughly what you were going to do before your turn came up.
>Groups of people, especially in dangerous situations (which most tabletops simulate), select leaders
See >>43302946. There is nothing wrong with a leader. The problem comes when the leader decides to be an dictator. Gaming is still a cooperative pasttime, and denying people their say in it makes you That Guy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:44:49 No.43303206 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303276

>>43302946
Thats why I said IF, meaning those podcasts, good ones anyway, inform newbie GM's how to deal with bad apples, not how to shut down the guy who tries to push story forward.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:49:54 No.43303276 Report Delete

Quoted By: >>43303358 >>43303452

>>43303206
Are they any good?
I've never really heard of any that are held favorably, lacking obnoxious opinions thrown in your face or inflated self opinions with poor attempts at comedy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 19:55:24 No.43303358 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43303276

Out of all the roleplaying game advice podcasts I've listened to, which frankly isn't that many since there are a great deal of obnoxious ones that try too hard to be funny, Fear the Boot is actually pretty solid. The hosts don't try to hard and are varied enough in viewpoints and experience that they often have two or three different sides in a debate over tricky game subjects like the place of prison escapes in rpgs and DM burnout.

The only really iffy thing is that they do shill their own game and convention quite a bit, but it's pretty minor.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Oct 2015 20:01:00 No.43303452 Report Delete

Quoted By:

>>43303276
I have only stuck with one so for the moment - Grimdark, as you might have guessed it's a 40k podcast. They have episode about this issue in RT and I don't remember it feeling obnoxious to me. They are not perfect, but noone is.

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